Can I use a 351 (Windsor or Cleveland) Motor?

[FFR] "These engines, since they share the same lower dimensions as the smaller 302 small block, fit the frame using the Mustang™ motor mounts. Headers that fit a stock 5.0 Liter Mustang or a 351 block will be required in fitting the side exhaust. *Cleveland will fit, but requires custom headers, give us a call (Factory Five) regarding this engine."

Question: [dino] "my neighbor wants to build an FFR, and just purchased a 351C. The questions are 1) are the engine mounts the same as the 351W? 2) will a T-5 bolt up, same tranny bolt pattern as a 351W and 302? 3) Does anyone make headers to install a 351C in a FFR...and if so, how much? Thanks guys, appreciate the help."

Answers:

[ML] "I hate to tell you this, but a Cleveland is too tall to fit in a FFR (or, so I've been told by T. Smith of FFR).

I wanted to use a 351C myself, but it's not to be. Sorry."

[DB] "Vern in NorCal has a great running 351C in his FFR so it can be done."

[MB] "The 351C does have the same bolt pattern as the 351W and 302, so a T5 should bolt up fine. Have him call Mike Forte to double check though.

I think the engine mounts are the same, call up your local Discount Auto or Ford dealer to make sure."

[xc] "the cleveland has the same bellhousing as any small block ford. the motor mounts are the same(i think). its been a long time since i tinkered with one. fitting a ffr well cant answer."

[dino] "I figured the 351C would fit....heck, if a 460 will bolt in there, so there's no problem there. Does anyone know for certain if the motor mounts are the same? I'm pretty sure they are, but just wanna check. Also headers are going to be a bear....but he figures he's saving money since the Cleveland heads flow so good, he won't have to buy aftermarket heads...instead will spend the $$$ on headers."

[blk] "The 351C should be an excellent motor. I'm using a 400M...gobs of torque! During my factory visit, Dave S. assured me it would fit fine, the M's and C's all use the same motor mounts, and there is plenty of room. He suggested getting their "4 into 4" header option, and making custom headers, but for now I'm using a "shorty" header and a J pipe. No one makes a shorty header for 351C-400M, but I've talked to a tech guy at Thorley Headers and they can make me a custom set. Now, my worries: the C's and M's all make lots of torque, but I'm limiting revs to about 6000...in such a light car, I'm not 100% sure I can get all the torque to the ground! And top end is limited by the low revs...the 10 grand screamers will drive right by! (after they catch up). Zap me an email if you have any other questions...I pick up my car 1/27, and will start in...then I'll know how well the 400 works..."

[WC] "back in highschool, I put a 351C in my old Cougar that had a factory 351W. The motor mounts bolted right up. And yes, the bellhousing is the same. Steve Fox up here in Northern VA is running a 351C in his FFR."

[S350] "I have a 351c in my F5R. Yes you can use the T5. I used the Ford Motorsports 351-in-a-Fox headers; the passenger side one fits perfectly, but the drivers side was about an inch to wide. I cut the footbox wall and modified it with a small box that intrudes into the footwell about 1 1/4 inch. No big deal, but I bet you can find a tighter header; however its a pain in the butt to buy 4 or 5 headers and experiment with them.

I used the convertible mounts right from Ford. Edelbrock carb (Weber, really), Edelbrock manifold and cam. MSD ignition. Nice motor, be sure to get the '69 heads."

[ML] "Why the '69 heads? I have a 71 351HO block (4 boly main Cleveland) with 72 open chamber heads. Will these heads present a problem??"

[JK] "not to piss on any one's parade, but the only C heads built for the 1969 model year were the BOSS 302 heads (2.23/1.71), not (2.19/1.71). if you are getting 351W heads, THEN you make sure you're getting '69 heads.

other than the valve size, 1969-73 4V-C heads are the same. they quit making the C after '73 and the 2V-C heads were used on the 400 and 351M."

[tg] "I have a 1970 4bbl cleveland and it has closed chamber 2.19/1.71 valves with 10.58 factory comp ratio with flat pistons. But don't worry even the crappy 2bbl heads have 2.05 in intakes. The bad thing about all these heads is the exhausts have aa horrible port the gas has to do almost a 180 going out of the head, probably because of the tight mustang shock towers the engineers had to design around. Ford motorsport used to make an aluminum set of heads for theses but I cant seem to find them ."

[PP] "These guys may be able to give you some help on your header dilemma .
www.coatem.com
or www.rewarderheaders.com

The later ones may be spendier but I imagine if you gave them the measurements they would custom build a set that would hook right up to the FFR 4:1 with no J pipe."

[FFRKing] "There are three types of factory 351C heads.
1. Open chamber 2 barrel heads.
2. Open chamber 4 barrel heads.
3. Closed chamber 4 barrel heads.
The open chamber heads will offer about 9-9.5 to 1 compression with flat top pistons.
The closed chamber heads will have approximately 10.5-10.7 to 1 compression.
The 4 barrel heads are commonly considered to have poor performance on street driven vehicles due to the large intake ports. This would not pose a problem in a car as light as an FFR.
The 2 barrel heads offer better streetability
and still offer 2.05 intake valves and very good flow.
One other alternative is the Australian closed-chamber 2 barrel head. These offer the smaller intake and exhaust ports for better low rpm flow and will give 10.5 to 1 compression. They cost about $400 a pair used.
When I built the 351C for my '68 Cougar 11 years ago, I used the Australian heads. It has a Comp Cams 268H Cam, Edelbrock Performer, 600 Carter, Mallory Unilite dist., C-6 auto, and 3.70 posi. Using the G-tech accelerometer, it has done a 14.0 sec quarter mile, spinning the tires all thru first gear.
I know my almost stock motored FFR will be quicker, but I still love to drive the Cougar. I do intend to keep both of them."

[50] "throw that cleveland overboard and use it for its intended use.... a boat anchor. you are asking for many troubles in the long run and clevelands were never the overrated motor that they were intended to be.
in SHORT, they were slugs and even ford admitted their mistake in making it. that's why it was cancelled so quickly, so do yourself a favor and get a windsor, faster cheaper and more reliable"

Ideas? [MS] "Will be looking to build a 351W in the next year. Going for 425 hp (or there abouts). Engine is for a GT40 in front of a G50 or G50/50 transaxle. Believe I'll run an EFI set up on this one. Expect to build body with Gulf flares so as to get 335s on the rear and with the G50/50 could adjust the final gear somewhat. Would like to have reasonable streetability but the ability to produce enough rpm and hp to move the car to 180 or better.

Would appreciate comments about the "good setups" and neat ideas that folks have proven in Roadsters or other exotic replicas. Also seeking input as to good builders who deliver very good value for the invested dollar.

thanks for all comments"

Comments:

[M3] "Call Jim Shafer at Indy Mustang Performance. He's been working with me to get a very economical 351W EFI setup into my Roadster, er roadster."

[IL] "392 stroker or bigger (careful above 410). AFR 185 heads, DEFINITELY. Cam to your choosing. Several intakes to choose from, depends on what you want for a torque curve. 9.5:1 CR since you could still run 87 octane on the street. 4 into 1 headers, 36# injectors and MAF. 70 mm TB. I'd probably go with 224-228 duration (@.050), .530-550 lift or there-abouts. Probably go for a mid-range manifold since 6000 RPM is not that frequent. It would be a stump-puller."

1) what is the difference between 351c and a 351w?
2) any power difference? how much power?
3) what is the difference between a long block and a short block. and also what is the difference between a big block and a small block?

[JJ] "W = Windsor, Ontario engine plant and is the 302/5.0 liter, 351/5.4 liter small blocks.

C = Cleveland, Ohio engine plant and is the 351 small block. (Don't know if a 400C exists).

M = Modified 351 and 400 for trucks, yet considered a small block.

FE = Ford Engine plant, Dearborn, Michigan for the 332- 428 "Big Block" engine. These were the largest engines until the 429/460 series. I do not have my books in front of me so someone else, jump in here please.

A short block is an assembled engine without heads, manifolds, water pump, distributor, and accessories.

Long block is an assembled engine with heads, at least. Some consider intake as part of the definition. Some add distributor to the description and maybe water pump."

[99] "One correction,
FE = Ford,Edsel
Can you believe all those people making fun of the Edsel and than wanting to put one of those "boat anchors" in their Roadsters.
One exception, if you own an original CSX 3000 series Roadster then you must have the FE."

There are three configurations: 351C, 351M, and 400M. M's are the same as the C, except for about an inch of deck height, (the distance from crank centerline to the "deck" which is where the cyl heads bolt on. The 400M is a longer stroke version of the 351M. The extra inch of deck height gives you almost an extra inch of rod length, 5.7 in for the C vs. 6.6 for the M's. This rod length converts into massive torque.

The M's were used in trucks, but also the heavy Galaxies etc. They never really had a chance as a performance engine, since they came out under the smog dog days in the 70's. However, their bore/stroke/rod length configuration is excellent, and with the aftermarket cams/intakes etc. available now, the make a lot of power cheaply. No need for special cranks, since they all came from the factory with nodular iron. No need for special heads, since the stock 2 barrel heads flow more than about any 302 or 351W head. A little compression, good cam, and...gobs of hp and torque.

So, a 400M will make 350hp all day, pretty cheap, vs. a 350hp 302 which costs a lot more!"

[dino] "Also....the 351C doesn't have the aftermarket part supply that a 351W has....that means 351W performance parts are generally cheaper. Cleveland heads flow better out of the box, but really don't "come on" untill 5000 rpm or more. Either engine makes a heck of a power plant for an FFR...I know I have a slightly warmed over 351W...and she do run GOOD!!!!!"

Question: [PL] "I haven't even got my 302 on the road yet, and I am thinking about moving up to the 351. I have gone through the swap in my head, and answered most of my questions except for the exhaust swap.

Is there enough adjustment in the J-pipe to use the stock exhaust?

Can I retain my Equal length shorty headers?

OR, Should I just add the price of the 4 into 4 header system as part of the swap?"

Comments:

[ac] "There are shorty headers available from FRPP and MAC that allows installation of a 351W in a 79-93 Mustang. This is what you need for the 351W in the Roadster to use the j-pipes."

[WP] "if you go 351W, you can either use a Fox body 351W swap headers and the J pipe or get the 4 into 4 headers and sidepipes from FFR. I would recommend the later purely for aesthetic reasons. The sidepipes are different between the 4 into 4 than the J pipe side pipes."

[PL] "This is what I was thinking

FRPP 351W Sportsman short block $1899
AFR 185 Almnm heads $12-1300
Bolts and Gaskets $125
TFS 351 intake sys inc TB & misc. $700
Headers $250
Total: $4274.00 (+- $300)

It made more sense to do it this way if going EFI. I have the timing cover and clockwise WP.
I wonder if FRPP will offer a 392 Short block Assy anytime soon?"

[BB] "I was considering a similar setup but with a carb for now. I have been doing a lot of research and it seems that the 351W Sportsman shortblock isn't available anymore. At least not the A351 Sportsman shortblock. The one that you may find is the D58 shortblock which is basically a factory reman unit. The D58 is already bored 30 over. I was told by one place that FRPP(FMS) doesn't make anymore 351W shortblocks. Not sure how much truth there is to that though. But I did talk to one guy from Canada who claims to have worked at the Windsor plant before it shutdown in 96. He was able to provide some good info on the differences in the blocks. I have a Lightning shortblock available (at least I don't think it has sold yet) that is roller cam ready with taller lifter bores, etc but I can't decide on whether to try and get it for a rebuild or an earlier pre 74 stronger junk yard core and rebuild and retro it for roller cam. The impression I got was that the Lightning was a regular production 351W for trucks that was held to a little higher quality control(i.e. picked out of the bunch based on tighter production specs and no reworks). The A351 Sportsman seemed to be the ultimate as for as price, strength, and it was roller cam ready. Some guy said he only paid 1500$ for his new about 2 years ago. What a deal, too bad we can't get them now. If someone knows otherwise please let me know because I would like an A351 Sportsman also.

I also have been checking out Alternative auto website. Did you see the FFR they built? That is sweet. That is what I was thinking of doing, i.e. Sportsman with cam and TFS heads. A little less than the AFRs but still good flow numbers and can always be ported."

[My427] "Here are the specs for the FMS 351 Crate Engine (FMS M-6007-A351) which you can get from Forte's for about $4,900 - including shipping 

[cd] "The 392 short block w/o cam and heads is $2,995. The long block is $6,200 or 6,300.
with heads and Victor Jr manifold. I am seriously considering going the short block and using the AFR heads tested in Fast fords"

[1775] "I also heard that Ford Racing has a limited supply of 351W blocks and crate motors and then will then no longer be available. BTW the A351W in the SVO catalog, shown above, does come with the 58cc Xheads . Instead of 385hp/377tq it produces 412hp/397tq. They did not even bother to update the specs.
Somehow I think Ford has a new head coming down the road as they started bolting the 58cc X heads on about a year ago . Perhaps they are depleting stock ? The GT40 design just seems suddenly be considered "old" as the new CNC ported better flowing heads are
hitting the market. Edelbrock has to answer AFR and so does ford Racing. The 351w is still a great bang for the buck in our Roadsters !"

Will it fit?

Question: [SG] "For those of you who have put a 351 in an FFR, any one used one of the taller intake manifolds (carb'd) like the Vic Jr or Super Victor? Is there enough clearance under the hood or are drop mounts necessary? If drop mounts are necc., are there any subsequent problems with the clearance of the oil pan?
Related to that, will any oil pan that fits a mustang automatically fit the FFR Roadster?
Finally, where do you get your headers for a 351 in the FFR kit? The engine I'll be using has TFS Streat Heats (Hi-Ports) and require non-standard flanges. Any suggestions?

I couldn't find that part number in the Canton catalog...is that an older part number?
May not matter much 'cause I've got an SVO 4 bolt main block that Canton *says* requires a 13-672A pan. (Which is what I've got already anyway). So since it's for a 79-95 Mustang, do you think it'll fit?
Also, since I've already got a heavily ported Super Victor matched to my heads, is there anything that can be done to make it fit? I hate to have to ditch it."

Comments:

[wp] "The Victor Jr will fit, the super victor is a little tall. The stock pan will hang below the frame rails. The Canton 15-964 will fit fine."

[M3] "MAC makes both short and long tube headers for a 351 swap with hi-ports. See www.musclemotors.com"

[WP] "You're right, I was thinking 15-694 and typed the other. The Victor Jr with a 750 Demon, Roadster Oval air filter, clears the hood by 3/16". So to use the Super Victor, you will have shorter motor mounts (and live with the roadrace pan slightly below the frame rails) or modify the hood scoop area to allow for more clearance. Or a combo of both. You can make the scoop wider and slightly longer without hurting the looks of the scoop. The 15-672 pan will hang below the frame rails almost 2", not good. I used the 15-670 on my car when it was first completed, and drug the pan on a number of occasions. You can have that pan sectioned and shortend to fit."

He makes an 8 qt. pan especially for the FFR. The bottom of the pan is above the bottom of the 4" round tube frame."

What brands etc will fit? Anything to look out for?"

[t50] "I have the ford lightning truck GT40 intake on my 351, and i like it. It has all the correct holes and plugged right into the mustang 87-93 wiring and ran. No messing around, i did the 351 conversion in one day, and hasn't been any trouble since. This is on my 93 GT track car, the ultimate donor car for a FFR kit."

Personally I think the GT40/Roadster/Performer are best suited to 302's. If you put them on a 351 your HP will peak way too early. Check out some of the shorter runner intakes to maximize those additional cubes."

[wp] "My car has the Trick Flow EFI intake on a 377."

Go back to the FFR FAQ